Buyers' Guide Land-rover Super-Heterosexual Deep 2B Forward Control One Ton Rims & Wheels 569203 569204 ANR1534 543384

[fuckwit]

[11]
What's the real differnces and identifiers, and what's all the fuss about Pressing C & D rims? (usually in the parlance referred to as 204 & 203s)

Here's a piccy of the Archbishop's wagon running coiler era Type No.3 Pressing A - Variant 3 rims. Note these rims are short on 'step'



"Das bad man, dem iz bitchin, on dat day iz wel wikid.
Day fil da arches owt wel propa phat innit.
(OK this picture has already been shown, but for comparison, the above self-same vehicle running rare Pressing D, these looking deeper.)


And here's that split-image piccy again, showing yet again the self-same two rims variants you see above, side-by-side, 'birds-eye' downwards. Because there's two things going on here, 1) Pressing D does have more deepset, (see rivets deep-centre in the wider tyre well) and 2) has more 'step, you might now see, how and why, coiler era rims despite also being 6.5J appear shallow in comparison.

Whereas what follows is a different comparison again...



King of the Hill, Pressing D compared to a Pressing C. Here shown is the 'money-shot' differences. As said, these rims types can carry the same 569203 part number despite the differences. Pressing D (in grey) compared to a Pressing C (in white). Deepset reveals the valve on Pressing D. In the flesh, except square-on, there's a marked difference.

I'd like to show you the very same view of a Pressing A rim set against Pressing C rims, there's marked differences too. Only I've no Pressing A rims to hand. If you've followed this so far, you'll understand why. Take my word for this, or better, still, see for yourself. Many seem happy to pay about the same in hard-earned for Pressing A. This baffles me,. You're bidding against some monkey who says they're all the same. Suggest you hold fire, sit tight and aim to be getting Pressing B or C.

[fuckwit]

[12]
Which is the Strongest?
Numerously discussed on the various LR forums, the term 'Heavy Duty' seems to crop up.

I’ll break cover on this ‘strength of rims/ wheels…’ er, thing. Some clearly hanker to have us think their rims disintegrate on the corrugated roads, 183 miles outside Nairobi. For those with the 'hat', tiny winkle and camo trousers, I'm pretty sure this is the thought process.

There is nothing 'Heavy-duty' about theses rims. All Series/coiler steel rims are the same gauge.

Prices for Type No.8 & 9 Pressing D:
This is not a buyers’ market. If you asked me to locate a set of these, I know of only three ports of call. Last year [2016], single rims sold for £185 & £200.00 respectively. Perhaps I got lucky, I sold two full sets for £300 a corner, very easily. For complete sets, even this pricing could be cheap. With damned rarity, prices are impossible to gauge. Oddments yes, but I’ve not seen a full set selling since my own. Being 30-40 times rarer that the other pressings, these should fetch 30-40 times the price. They don’t. Double can be an expected. Those banging their heads to their keyboards will sneer and carp, “They’re not worth that…”. I'm afraid they are, one thing is clear, they're properly rare and everybody wants them. Prices are set by those with wallet open.

The Four Pressings:
In essence, focus on the four pressings. Prices should reflect the differences, yet mostly they don’t. It's how I got my stash. Let those not prepared to do their homework buy Pressing A rims, the others don't seem to sell for much more anyway. Sadly the rarest won't usually come as sets - mine didn't. Even though it's not clear 'they' know what they mean, in the parlance coiler-era rims get referred to as ANRs. The more desirable leafer-era rims - 204s & 203s.

I wrote the last guide some four-five years ago. This I bash-off in 2017. If my last effort is anything to go by, attempts at pricing soon become way out.

[fuckwit]

[13]
Since you’re here, let's get these out of the way - the Red Herrings:

Red Herring A:
The 101 FC One Tonne Gun Tractor Rim. 6.5J: Tubed. This is a ‘Walts-only’ six-stud rim, it will not fit a standard Series Land-rover. Fits Unimogs though. Not to be confused with the 'One Ton' rim. Incidentally, leafer era rims are five-stud 6.5" (165mm) PCD. [Pitch Circle Diameter: the diameter of the circle which passes through the centre of all the studs].
Red Herring B:
Wolfs / Eight Spokes / Modulars: I’m not sure crying red-herring is entirely correct with eight spokes etc. Land-rover ownership is a broad-church. As sure as Mini and Beetle fan-bois get their annual rally, likewise for us, we have Billing. The King of Land-rover meets, Billing even attracts visitors from Europe - the odd Yank too. Yes, we Brits do this best.

It do, fairly bring a tear to my eye.

It’s a costume event, the dress-code for the Land-rover faithful is strict, yet unspoken. It has three variants. Mainly a dead-heat in a pound-shop Crocodile Dundee contest. I went last year. Cavorting in the de riguer finery, to the throes of ‘God Save the Queen’ I was overcome with emotion. Go to Billing this summer and you’ll see what I mean. Behold for I ask, is there another nation to excel like us? Thousands and thousands flocking in annual migration, playing their part in one of the great riddles of the natural world. Bursting into ‘Landy of Hope and Glory’ Billing puts the ‘Great’ in Britain. I beg, join me in climbing every mountain, marching every byway, following every rainbow, for we shed a tear. Billing is the place British Land-rover manhood comes, he comes to mince about spattering Solihull product in Mantec's homoerotic shonk.

These monks to the monastery of shonk prostrate themselves at the altar before their icon in a ‘Not-quite-cowboy’ hat.

Strike up the Elgar.



Huddled round singing campfire songs, there’s Billing Bingo.


The Holy Text, the Gospel according to St. Phillip of Sterndale,
Puts it best. A deep belly-laugh for all. Linky:

http://900club.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1459

I wish I could write so well.

[fuckwit]

[14]
Ebay - Buying, the more astute buyer helps sellers to help them.
Chances are, with eBay holding the monopoly on the online carboot/ autojumble, you’re going to be looking in this direction. The thinking buyer helps the genuine sellers to help them. it's why listings of the more desirable rims usually end early. Sellers are paying 23%ish, hence £200-300 in selling fees. The morons won't, yet the astute buyer sees how that doesn't help him either.

Paste this search and set things up for those nice eBay folks to mail your search-matches as they come in:

("land rover", landrover) (127, 2b, FC, 569204, 569203, forward, control, 130, ton, tonne, "Forward control") (wheels, wheel, rim, rims) -(steering, spacers, front, bearing, alloy, cylinder, nut, step, rear, 101, spats, eyebrows, arches, body, studs, nuts, extended, spoke, arch, remote, star, ride)

Thereon in, it’s a scrum.

[fuckwit]

[15]
Alternatives & Oddities.
Well, you never know eh? Exactly how or why you'd ever come to get hold of these I don’t know, yet I bring these options to your attention:

a1) 503489 Version One: Tubed. [Deepset measures: 72mm others report 75mm]:
Marked 503489, this rim is still a mystery, I’ve 3-4 reports of it. I understand 503489 is not a Land-rover part number, yet considering 569203 isn't listed either, I wouldn't set too much store. I think it’s either an Austin Champ, or Austin LD van rim. (See below - you're allowed wild guesses too). I held off this rewrite in an effort to get this info. I failed. Anyone have ideas on where these are from? However from what I can make out, a set of these would be no bad thing. No bad thing at all.






a2) 503489 Version Two: Tubed. [Deepset -Unknown]:
This rim appears to be different to the Version One. Has more ‘deepset’ however I’ve not really been able to nail it. All I have is what you see:

The rivet is pretty close, near as damnit a Pressing D


In yet another mixed-set, looks very deep to me



Reckon this version is superior to a Pressing C. But I've struggled to verify this. Sorry, none the wiser, I'd only be guessing. I give you my pics in the hope. My current theory runs that these are like the others, yet another mis-stamping. This time of Type 8 rims. They certainly look very similar (if not identical) and because these rims appear in LR circles, this seems plausible.

b) The 1950s BMC Austin/Morris LD commercial van. 6.5J: [Deepset measures: 81mm ]
Rims from this van were used by ‘Triallers’ for the same reason they liked the late FC rim. Wider track, They fit. I understand you may have to increase the hub-centres to get these to fit. Back in the day, government departments, the Royal Mail and BRS had vast fleets of BMC Austin/Morris LD. As they got rid, these rims would have been everywhere. In LR circles, their fame means, they’ve outlived the vans.








Easy to identify with the fillet near the hub-centre, these require the hub-centre to be enlarged, ie turned to fit.

Same LD rim turned to fit.

Again my info is sketchy. Anyone?

[fuckwit]

[16]c) Austin Champs - (Maybe, perhaps & Hopefully):
Some, (not all) Austin Champs have deep dish rims. They fit. These crop-up to confuse. Perhaps 503489 and deep Champ rims are the same animal. Anyone?





Some are a split-rim. It seems most were. However, those Champs I've seen lately are not split, and were definitely pretty deep. maybe these are 503489. I fear here too, my info is sketchy. Anyone?

d) Morris Lorry
And for our Aussie cousins, this:

Morris Lorry rims fit.

e) Uzel From Turkey
Uzel are a Tractor /Agricultural Plant Manufacturer

A new find, thanks to Alex in Austria, we have this discovery. I'd have these over a set of Pressing A. No idea which Uzel kit uses these. I'd match these to Pressing B in terms of desirability. Very nice. Narrow Tyre-well makes them appear just as deep. More pix later.

[fuckwit]

[17]
e) Banding:
The clue’s in the name. This is an old school method of modding rims by welding a band into each rim.

There’s clear advantages.
For kick-off, it’s not just the money, genuine sets of rims require you to find the b^%tards. Non-UK residents in particular might have little choice in this regard. So, grab your existing rims, and ‘Bob’s your Auntie’, banding offers instant gratification.

It can be done well. 6.5J Banded rims on this LWB.

If you've no other options, whilst not all that cheap, banding is a good solution. The fly-in-the-ointment is that something like the above will be best part of £400. At this level, there's little point. With the genuine things barely £50-100 more, most would see genuine and have done.


Not strictly banding, and I'm not sure what's going on here, or which lump of agricultural / construction plant he pulled those off, only you're forced to like this bloke's wit.

Yet 'Banding' is definitely one for those of a ‘Carlos Fandango’ persuasion.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqqZ28m8uCo[/youtube]

The usual “What’s the widest tyre I can fit to this” cohort will be in delirium with joy.
Many hanker for their boyhood Tonka truck. If you're the type to refer to your Land-rover as 'My Truck', and any irony sails over your head, banding is probably for you.

OK, I’m being a trifle unfair. If you’re not in the UK, finding genuine deep rims can be next to impossible. Limiting temptation to band over 6.5J, the process has to be vastly preferable to the blasphemy of 8 spokes various, Modulars, Wolfs, Disco rims and bolt-on-shonk. Where you're after the full ‘Carlos Fandango’, and poverty of thought stopped you, banding won't come much cheaper.

Overall banding works out the rich man’s solution. All told even without courier costs, Banding won't be much less than £70 a rim, often more. Hence, by the time you’re factored collection, messing et al, five banded rims, you're in at £400+. As I said, at this level you’re barely £50-100 short of what you’d pay for a set of the real thing.

On eBay now.
The good bit about getting them banded to 7.5-8.0J, or even 9.0J is that you get to list your set on eBay.
Better still, take the shortcut. Buy from the various Carlos' with them going round and round on eBay now.



This set in Green have been round eBay three times.



Must be due another lap soon... this set has been round twice. I'll leave you to figure out why.

At 9J, these won't look remotely silly.

So have a quiet chuckle next time any of these have an outing. Then, with his 'truck' - and they always refer to them as 'trucks', here is our next contestant...


Bobbing back and forth, she cooed. The slot for his Mother’s 10p sits in the driver’s door.

Apparently the logic goes, Banding, allows wider, for less.

Makes sense, now you explain it.

[fuckwit]

[18]
Tyres
If you've been paying attention, tyre choice is limited to tube-compatible varieties. 7.50 x 16 and the ever pricier and rare 9.00 x 16. At the time of writing there's Petla 9.00 x 16 and as far as I can see, that's about your lot. 7.50 x 16 is easy enough to find, but not much cheaper. I got lucky with some new Michelin XZL 7.50 x 16 at the price you'd pay for the mid-range choice, Avon Rangemaster. Tubeless stuff isn't wise - you can't run tubes with tubeless, more on that below and you need a tube. Moulded in the tyre-wall, watch manufacture dates on tyres. [Week of year and Year - thus 3619 is 36th week of 2019] More so with LR tyres, with low wear, many look new.

When buying these rims, using couriers with tyres often won't help. Price is vastly affected by the fitment of tyres and whether the seller will offer to courier, else allow your courier to collect these awkward and expensive to move items. Many couriers refuse tyres.

Hence, good tyres don't necessarily help value. If you think about it, how could they? - unless buyer and seller are local to each other, tyres force the price down.

I was so desperate to get my last rim, I begged the seller to remove the very decent tyre. Most couriers want 'pallet-wrapping'. Note: ‘Tyres on’ will usually require pallet services. Other couriers have banned pallet-wrap because it jams conveyor-belts at their sorting hubs. Removing the tyre puts a rim into most courier's weight limit. In my case, my seller got a tyre back, and I got my real Type No. 9.

All these rims, (without tyres), weigh 14kg each. At courier rates, that can be a big "Ouch". Suggest you use Myhermes, they have a 15kg weight limit per item. They also pick-up from sellers. If your seller will be out, get your seller to drop off to the nearest news-agent/grocers (many offer Myhermes). Email your seller the Myhermes labels. Barcode visible (of course, unlike tyres, no wrapping required, but pallet-wrap works well). Within the UK, excluding Highlands and Islands, it'll still cost you £8.00 + VAT each, thus £50.00 odd to move a set of five. I've not found cheaper. Job done.

[fuckwit]

[19]
A note of caution:
I am not an expert on tyres. Most can't fit tubes, thus I’m not always sure the knuckle-draggers in tyre depots know what they're doing either. Ask an expert, although how you'll find one I'm not sure - polymer engineers and tyre R&D bods are not in your local Kwik-Fit. Please do not consider a tubeless tyre on a tubed rim. All these rims were made around tubed tyres. It's not just about the rivets leaking.

It says Tubeless or Tubed on the tyre-wall for a reason.
You can weld them up, but don't. It’s with the seating of the tyre, the bead fitment supporting the tyre is missing on a tubed rim. Not good in a blow-out; hitting a pot-hole etc etc. In rapid deflation, nothing holds air for those few seconds and the driver loses control. In a complex big-ticket insurance claim - using the wrong tyres or any mechanical fault to wriggle large claims, is not unheard of.

The bigger danger is friction. The tube on the inner wall of many tubeless tyres is too rough on tubes, the tube fails as the tyre heats and moves. I understand you can put a tubed tyre and tube, on a tubeless rim. Exceptions: Some tubeless tyres are also designed to allow tubes (Michelin XZY & XZL definitely). When a penchant for bodging is seen as clever, it grants no right to put others at risk.



I always kill a chicken over my socket-set.
Can't hurt. Might help.

Here I give you what I suspect is stupidity. Rivets welded on a Type 9 569203.

Cleaning them up
Often you’’ll not see the part number before shot-blasting. Shot-blasting is best, but remember, blasting won't get under the riveted section. My first set was powder-coated, it cost lots of loot, In hindsight, I question its worth. Firstly, you'll have to over-paint anyway, you won't get a match to limestone or any other LR standard colour. Secondly, I've since seen powder-coating with water getting under it, the stuff powders off again. I suppose over-painting helps prevent the water getting under the powder. If I was doing it again, I'd shot-blast and then paint. Like a decent pair of old shoes, slightly freindly always looks better than new. And, when were leafers ‘sposed to be 100 point ‘concours de elegance’ entrants, anyway?

Galving would be overkill.

Corrosion
There is a potential problem with corrosion of the valve-hole. If the valve-hole is corroded, sharp edges are produced. These cut into the rubber valve-stem. If not fitted already, most tyre-fitters supply plastic protectors for the valve-stem. The valve-hole area is a point of entry for water and can result in corrosion; abrasive to the innertube it leads to punctures. Clean it and surface-treat as best you can. Bathroom-sealant in the valve-hole helps.

Ferrules
There are two valve sizes. These rims take the larger TR15 valve. Yet, I would argue that with older corroded valve-openings going sharp, you might be better with the smaller TR13 size and a ferrule. Thus the valve stem sits against a ferrule and gives a greater margin of safety. Rarely fitting tubeless, most of today's tyre-fitters won't know about or will forget these. Your mileage may vary.

You'll also get fitters trying to remove or fit the tyre with the back of the rim downwards on their tyre-fitting rig. On car-sized tyre-fit kit, this won't work. Get them to flip the rim such that outer face facing downward, sits on their machine.

[fuckwit]

[20]
Gay Brakes: Disc Conversion Kits

Disc kits with Deep Rims here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1736&p=11102#p11102


I do have real experience with my particular installation, the Mk2 Heystee kit using Fiat Ducato/ Talbot Express/ Peugeot J5/Citroen C25/ Iveco Mastiff PS10 Santana parts - all the rims here can be made to fit the Mk2 Heystee kit, done by grinding the corner of the caliper casting. Advised in the Heystee installation instructions for the kit.


You don't have to grind off the centre-rim edge of the 569204 as done here to fit the MK2 Heystee kit.

Some of the other disc conversions kits struggle with leafer-era deep-dish rims. Modern rims required, I believe the Zeus/Toro kits have issues, or need spacers. These, if you are fitting 569203, will put the tyre outside the wheel-arch. The Heystee Mk1 Merc van based kit might have trouble, yet can be made to work. The current inexplicable liking is for kits that take only LR parts. I fail to see the logic. Heystee stopped using Merc & Iveco parts, not because anything wrong with them, the supply of the Santana calipers dried-up when Santana folded. Pads etc are easy to get. Using Merc bits, and in my case the Fiat Ducato/ Talbot Express camper vans works well enough.

In short, whereas each time you apply drums you're never quite sure what you're going to get, if drums pull-up straight now, 1000 miles later they won't. Disc-kits are the greater improvement, not because of greater braking, although you will get this, more simply because unlike even the best maintained drums, they are consistent. Discs done well are great.

But remember your school-boy Physics, bigger brakes do not create bigger braking. Bigger brakes with greater surface area only cool better. cool better, and take longer to wear out. Brakes are not made better by larger area. Braking is a factor of force, not area. Brakes the size of a barn-door will not stop better. Friction is a factor of Force, not area. Increase Force, or the moments acting gets better brakes. You'll need to consider servos etc. If you don't understand this, better you leave them be.

With the other kits, I suggest you grasp 'what fits what'. I bring your attention to the issue. Your mileage may vary.

Spacers and wheel bearings
With wider rims or spacers, the argument about increased wheel-bearing wear might stack. Wheel bearings are cheap to replace anyway, and I've had no issues so far, but I do keep an eye on it. Some would say forget deep-dish rims, put spacers on. When Type 1-3 rims can be had for not much more, why?

Handling
I would surmise that handling is improved. Wider track must help. My 109 certainly felt more stable when Type 9 569203 rims were fitted. May all be my mind, perhaps as much to do with the set of Michelin XZY I put on at the same time. A 109 rides and handles a fair margin better than an 88 anyhow.

Turning Circle and Deep Rims
Clearly I’m wrong but I confess I’ve never worked-out the fascination for an 88 over any 109, excepting Station Wagons, today a 109 will sell for less. A 109 is so much more usable, and the military would agree. Despite a 109 being rarer, and costing more new, the 88 is seen as more desirable.

So, if you’re afflicted with WBD88D [Wheelbase Deficit 88ness Disorder], aside from being easier to park the thing, there aren’t many practical advantages to an 88incher and its lack of inches. Yet, there is one. Shorter wheelbases give tighter turning circles. This explains why any 109 makes an oil-tanker look nimble.
Now dial in a wider track at the steering end, this relative to the non-steered-end, and turning-circle gets tighter still. Which is why forklifts and those classic Morgan 3-wheelers turn in their own length.

Don't believe me? Leave the front alone completely. Now remove your rear rims, put a trolley-jack under you rear diff. You will now have a tighter turning circle. Change that trolley-jack for something wider yet still pivoted under the rear diff and can you see the base-geometry is not changed? This works, you can prove it with your kids' Meccano or Lego.

The 'Trials' crowd have it right
It is also why the Type No. 8 or 9 569203 has historically been sought amongst the Trials crowd. Trials rules allow production parts only. Hence their rules for the track is set by fitting our favourite. Another reason why proper Type No. 8-9 569203 rims have been sought after. I got two Type No. 9 rims from an old guy, an ex-Trialler, it was him ‘wot’ told me all this.

Never tried this, only as one of the ‘Trials’ crowd, I’m sure ‘Trebro’ of this parish, won’t mind me paraphrasing his words:

A S3 with Type No. 8-9 up front and standard rims at the rear, has a very noticeable turning-circle improvement. Even a couple of mm when on full lock magnifies into a big difference and lessens the frustration of running a series on course-sections set up primarily for 90s.
I could achieve the same result with white spokes or a modern steel rim with a 4" offset (4" is the max offset allowed under ALRC rules) but they would look out of place on my Series…

Deez iz wel wikid. Here in England’s Green-and-Peasant, Trebo's Wagon. Clear as day a Brit and proud of it.;

OK, rewrite done, as it was and ever shall be. Heaven forbid I labour a point.
My thanks to all of you with pics in this thread, I'd credit you all, but frankly I've forgotten where I got most from.

Until the day these rims get lumped together
There’s still gaps in this thread (in particular, I'm still vague on 503489, and those Champ & LD rims). This forum allows me to go back in and edit, which I've done. Sod’s Law says there’s still more variants out there, and maybe an error or two yet discovered. I’ve already ‘fessed to the last version having a few. I am convinced I have the common variants properly nailed. Until a dozen or so owners, each with their stash, gather in a field somewhere and thus collate as a whole, ’meself’ reckons, this is as good as it’ll get.

Until then...

Every fool can do an engine-swap to make a leafer go, 1 in a 100 can get it to stop. I once tried to do a decent post on how to a make a leafer truly stop. It got bogged-down. I'll have another go... one day.
It’s been long overdue for crissakes - The Tdi conversion has at last been exposed, so maybe a thread on CNG and other gasifications.

You’re welcome. For more information see our cashier.