203 price gouging

[helicalrider]

seems that some people use the 900 club and ebay for forcing up of prices.

Links on 900 club to ebay, Links on ebay to websites...

Is it coincidence or calculation?

Looks like rising prices of Ferraris and Mercedes 300SL in the 80th.

Now we have the situation, that some people mean, that 203s with rust holes and factory faked FC2a rims with 204 numbers are things like golden watches.

Poor world...

[22900013A]

I don't think anyone is using the forum to push up prices. That being said, I do feel some level of responsibility. Just over ten years ago when I bought my 1-Ton nobody really knew what one was. They were just known as being "rare". Having sought out other examples by using, for example, letters in the magazines etc, people are now more aware of them. Sadly the macho stance and fat wheels/tyres are considered "cool" and now probably moreso than ever before, people want deep dish wheels. They are seen quite often now on everything from 80" series 1s to IIAs, IIAs, Defenders...

I do wonder to what extent just doing the research and getting information out there causes this problem. Think about it, aside from "looking cool" deep dish rims offer no advantage to the owner of an ordinary series vehicle. They don't make it go faster or drive any better. Add to that the misery one would now face when trying to source a set to fit to a forward control or a 1-Ton being restored...

Whilst Forward Controls have always commanded strong money, it is beyond me why a 1-Ton is especially worth anything, yet they do seem to keep selling, or at least being one sale for, quite high prices. Again is it just rarity value? It is worrying thinking just how desirable the old lump of metal on my driveway is worth, as that of course makes it attractive to thieves.

You are absolutely right too about the fakers, and those using vague descriptions and selective photography. Others are maybe chancers who just don't know what they have. We don't even know how many variations of rims Land Rover made. How often do we still now see FFR or GS 109" 2.25 petrols being described as "1-Tons".

I'm not really sure what can be done though.

[helicalrider]

Jes, everybody is keen on deep dish rims.
But there are also lots of anr 1534 and wolf rims for fat wheel conversion.
The same members who rise the 203s and 204s in the nirvana, badmouth the anr to 20,-rims.

Offering 203s for 380,- and 203s with big rust holes for 50,- is not funny.
And nobody knows, if the 203s offered last year for 260,- really have been sold.
All this is not good for benchmark.

Noticable is the fact, that long time no rims are available, and now a lot of 203s and 204s from different sellers are in the bay.

[22900013A]

I suspect many individual rims and sets were bought years ago, probably for trialling, and then left in the shed. The recent rise in numbers for sale is probably folk jumping on the bandwagon after seeing some go for very strong money in recent years. The 204s and especially the 203s will command strong money as the genuine items are rare. The ANR rims are somewhat more common, and many people enjoy the "bragging rights" that genuine 203s or 204s bring. Personally I just want what is correct for my vehicle. Their rarity or otherwise is not very important. This is why we tracked down a set of proper inset 5.5" rims for our 66 swb.

The high prices are certainly not good for a buyer, but they are of course good news for a seller. Unless we somehow were to make them un-desirable I don't see that trend changing. Many Land -Rover owners love nothing better than tinkering and modifying their vehicles, and having a rare set of rims on is just another thing to show off. As I said in my previous post, they make no mechanical difference to the vehicle. It doesn't go faster or drive any better. There is no logical reason to want a set of 203 or 204 rims unless they were the rims your vehicle had when built. But logic goes out of the window when you have rich folks who think they look "cool"...

[Wheeledbeast]

I might be being a bit thik here , but dont they work like wheel spaces and give you more lock

[22900013A]

If they do, it is only by a tiny amount compared to a standard rim. It is just the outer section is wider allowing wider tyres to be fitted, not that the rim itself is any further out from the vehicle.

[fuckwit]

I have to agree with all of you. Especially the ArchBishop of this Parish. Along with him banging on, I wrote a post on another forum that with some imperfections gave people an understanding of what was what.

This came about simply because (at the time) I refused to put a set of eight spokes white modulars on my 109, not only were they dearer than used 204s or 203s but they smack of WIN, SAVE, FREE gimcrack laziness or ugly "I don't give a f&4k". Now, I do value the privlege of being a Brit and all that means. And... its responsibiliites. So all it took (at the time) was more time and thought. I refused to deface what is a part of my national inheritance with lazy, cheap tat. This took less money. Just effort.

Having got my own, I then wrote that post. And I will also admit, this not before getting my hoard of the things together. This when no one, but perhaps a few sad muppets like yours truly were vaguely interested. I can tell you, no one gave one flying F for the things. I did the research et al. They said i was crazy going to the effort I did. No one else got off their backside. And definitely, definitely, no one put their money where they mouth is. An example: In that post I got one rim for £70 (off Drum of this parish) and they said I was mad to pay it.

But I also agree as prices have risen, there's an new-found ugliness to it. Yet, if I'd not written that post and the ArchBishop had also shut-up, you'd all be very happy for me to have carried on.

If this forum and those like it had not bothered, I can hear it now....

"What's a One Ton then?

Never heard of it.
Should I be interested in anything about them?...
Didn't think so. I'm a lazy arse, I don't care, It's mine, I'm entitled to cover it in tat etc etc."


In the end, one is a product of the other. As the ArchBishop said:

There is no logical reason to want a set of 203 or 204 rims unless they were the rims your vehicle had when built. But logic goes out of the window when you have rich folks who think they look "cool"...

So, the AB and me should have kept quiet. That way this post, and this grumble could not exist. But until we all know how to put genies back in bottles, the rare and widely desirable in anything will command disproportionate and illogical sums of money. Is a set of 203 worth £300 a corner? Definiley not. Why should they be? It's obscene. But when the people I sell them to are driving vehicles bought only last week at 'Land Rover Centre' prices, you can start to see why £300.00+ a corner is looking cheap. So, having done the legwork, I make few apologies.

I have nearly completed the rewrite of that post. Something I threatened to do wayback. BTW: I have it as six distinct pressing (of which there's often two or three variants to each pressing]. If you look at the page count on that post it's got to 15,000+ hits. When I post, and it will be on here, lower prices won't be the result.

So I put it to you all, in its full and corrected form, should I not do it?

[fuckwit]

To answer the lock question. Yes they give more lock. That's why the trialler guys liked them. But...
For maximum effect in this, you want to duplicate the forklift truck effect. ie wider at the front, narrower at the back. Thus get your LR and put a Supermarket trolley wheel under the rear diff and £300 a corner on the front and you'll turn tighter. a la a forklift, Dodgems or a Morgan.
But... if you widen the track at both ends, forget it. You've just trashed a helluva lot of hard-earned for no tighter circles.

"There is no logical reason to want a set of 203 or 204 rims unless they were the rims your vehicle had when built. "


I don't wholly agree on one point: These rims when fitted have women drag you out onto the street for sex.

[22900013A]

Photos show old 80" series 1 triallers fitted (usually) with 569203s. Now, they fitted them front and rear, which I think would (maybe?) have the affect as described above. However they would allow a slight gain in steering lock, especially when shod with smallish tyres, as the outer rim is pushed away from the axle/bodywork/whatever. However as we keep saying, that difference is literally a few mm. If I understand the construction of 569204s, and the older IIA FC type rim, they offer no more offset over, say a 5.5" rim, they simply allow the fitting of wider tyres. Land Rover did not keep the rim inner section centred on the rims. The old swb rim (5") was like that, but when they needed to fit wider tyres they just extended the outer section inwards. So, externally they look the same, but on the inside we can fit 7.50s. Then along came the FC and they wanted to fit even wider tyres. So, I wonder did they start with the older inset LWB rim and just add and inch to the outside? Giving a 6.5" rim. Then, does the 569203 match the later 109"/5.5" rim again just with a wider outer section. I think we need to do a comparison of all series rims to get the full picture. But anyway to get back on the point, only the 203s will give you any more offset, and even then it isn't much.

[fuckwit]

Let me first say, I've never done any sort of trials on four wheels, so excuse me if I talk out of my rectal-passage but thinking this thru' the difference in turning-circle can't be measured in much can it? So you have to be right. There must be a difference because the track does increase, with wider rims. Simply because the tyre footprint centre-line and axis moves outward. I would guess you put the narrowest rims you can find on the rear.
Now when you're going thru' a trail stage (I've spent hours with my brother doing motorcycle trials, ) the section markers are left tight by the marshals, often down to the inch. Particualry on the exits to corners and sections. If you can gain even 2-3 inches, you're given significant advantage. So, and again I'm guessing, but if it's as motorcycle trials, that 2-3 inches is a lot. The difference between clearing a section and not. So in this arena the difference could be significant.

Now back in the real world, ie in the car-park at your local Tesco, I'm pretty sure, you'd not really notice.